Post by bluedot on Aug 3, 2023 13:21:41 GMT -5
I have an Outers Foul-Out system. (I really should plug it in to see if it works but anyways.....)
I have a 12 ga barrel from a Beretta 1301 that is heavily fouled with lead. I am guessing that the 100's of buckshot loads that were shot in it did NOT have any sort of plastic protector around the lead balls, and they left behind a LOT of material in the bore and the choke tube. I was able to get the choke tube cleaned (mostly) by a combination of ultrasonic cleaner with 50% concentrated Simple Green and 50% Reverse Osmosis water and a bronze brush held in a drill press on 200 rpm while I moved the choke tube back and forth or up and down while the brush was spinning, plus scraping it with a sharp knife.
At first I thought that I was taking off chrome plating and steel from the choke tube because it looked like I was putting threads on the inside of the choke tube, but no, the marks were being put in the .020"-.030" thick lead deposit on the choke tube. NO, the decimal is not in the wrong spot.....
With that said, I do NOT have enough of the solution to use the Foul-Out system in the shotgun barrel. I need more and when I went to buy more I find out that it is discontinued.
That resulted in more searching to see if anyone "reverse engineered" the formula. and I did find it on the Marlin Firearm Owners Forum. I will post what I found, that was posted back in 2015, but what I really need is if someone can decipher the formula for me, as I cannot find "exactly" the ingredients that are listed. For instance I cannot find Lead (II) Acetate. I can find Lead (II) Acetate trihydrate and Lead (II) Acetate basic anhydrous.
My question to the chemists out there is this:
What exactly do I need to purchase to make both the lead and copper removing solutions, and how much of each component do I need to purchase to make say 2 liters of each solution?
Here's the formula that was posted:
Foul-Out Solution
The formulation for the copper removing solution is: 3.62 grams/liter of Copper (II) Acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate in distilled or deionized water. The ammonium acetate is there to aid in the solubilization of the removed and oxidized copper and the copper acetate is used with the battery driven systems that to maintain a constant potential between the barrel and the electrode.
The lead out solution formulation is as follows: 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate and 6.50 grams/liter of Lead (II) Acetate in distilled or deionized water.
The Science Alliance 1920 Treble Drive
J-1
Humble, TX. 77338
(281) 540-3115
www.sciencealliance.com
Recipes
Cop Out Solution
in 500 ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
27.9 grains of Copper (II) Acetate @ 27.8 cents 58.96 grains of Copper (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 22.9 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.507 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $1.07
An aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore.
Lead Out Solution
in 500-ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
50.15 grains of Lead (II) Acetate @ 12.5 cents 105.98 grains of Lead (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 27.8 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.403 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.85
An aqueous electrochemical cleaning solution consisting of 0.5 moles/liter (38.5 grams/liter) ammonium acetate and 0.02 moles/liter (6.5 grams/liter) lead(II) acetate. Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constitutent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. Purchased 2/26/01 @ $157.49 less shippingAmmonium Acetate 10 Kilo Grams @ $0.011897 per Gram or 154320 grains $0.0007709 per grain
Copper Acetate 100 Grams @ $0.1542 per Gram or 1543.2 grains $0.0099922 per grain
Lead Acetate 500 Grams @ $0.0462 per Gram or 7716 grains $0.0024948 per grain
Will make 55 ea. 500 ml Cop Out base solution
Will make 153 ea. 500 ml Lead Out base solution
will make 519 ea. 500 ml Ammonium Acetate base solution
Conversion 500 ml = 16.9 ozGrams x 15.432 = grains
Liters x 1.0567 = Quarts
Liters x 33.81402 = Ounces
Copper or copper alloy fouling, the latter occurring primarily through the use of so-called jacketed bullets, is removed in a manner similar to lead. Thus, an aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. If a potentiostat is not used, the aqueous electrolyte is preferentially doped with copper ions supplied by dissolving therein a suitable copper salt, such as copper(II) acetate. However, because copper ions in solution react spontaneously with iron in a direct replacement reaction, it has been found that only very low concentrations of copper ions can be tolerated. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore. The acetate salt of copper also appears to have the beneficial effect of lowering the spontaneous reactivity of copper with iron. Similarly as in the case of lead alloy fouling, the alloying metals typically used with copper, such as zinc, are either dissolved and codeposited on the auxiliary electrode with the copper or loosened and fall into the aqueous electrolyte.
To electrochemically remove lead fouling, an aqueous solution of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate (38.5 grams/liter) is a preferred electrolyte. Ammonium acetate has no direct chemical or electrolytic effect on steel, but provides the electrolytic conductivity necessary for the electrochemical oxidation of the metallic fouling, and acts to enhance the dissolution of the oxidized lead. If a potentiostat is not used, the electrolyte is further preferentially doped with lead ions to establish in the electrolytic solution an equilibrium electrolytic condition which promotes uniform and continuous deposition of lead on the auxiliary electrode. Doping with lead ions also eliminates the need to monitor and adjust the potential and to maintain the lead ion concentration in the electrolyte. Most conveniently, the electrolytic solution may be doped with approximately 0.02 molar lead(II) acetate (6.50 grams/liter) which is compatible with the base electrolyte and innocuous to the steel bore. It should be noted that an aqueous solution of lead acetate alone may also be effectively used. However, as previously mentioned, ammonium acetate in the electrolyte enhances the dissolution of the electrochemically oxidized lead fouling. In addition, lead acetate is not very soluble in water, but is substantially more soluble in aqueous ammonium acetate.
Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constituent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. To the extent that these minor components of the fouling layer are not actually dissolved in the electrolyte, they are conveniently swept away with the electrolyte when the bore is emptied or may be swabbed from the bore in the conventional manner after the electrolyte is removed.
The method disclosed herein is effectively operated at very low d-c potential. Thus, potentials in the range of 0.15 to 0.30 volts have been found to be adequate and it is believed that, for all usual metal fouling layers, a potential in excess of 2 volts would not be needed. In all cases, the current density is effectively controlled by the amount of metal fouling on the bore surface and remains at a low level. The practice of the method, therefore, does not expose the user to any electrical hazard. Furthermore, the method may be carried out at room temperature, thereby obviating the potential hazard of handling high temperature liquids. The electrolytes do not evolve toxic vapors and can, therefore, be safely used indoors with normal ventilation.
The formulation for the copper removing solution is: 3.62 grams/liter of Copper (II) Acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate in distilled or deionized water. The ammonium acetate is there to aid in the solubilization of the removed and oxidized copper and the copper acetate is used with the battery driven systems that to maintain a constant potential between the barrel and the electrode.
The lead out solution formulation is as follows: 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate and 6.50 grams/liter of Lead (II) Acetate in distilled or deionized water.
The Science Alliance 1920 Treble Drive
J-1
Humble, TX. 77338
(281) 540-3115
www.sciencealliance.com
Recipes
Cop Out Solution
in 500 ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
27.9 grains of Copper (II) Acetate @ 27.8 cents 58.96 grains of Copper (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 22.9 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.507 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $1.07
An aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore.
Lead Out Solution
in 500-ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
50.15 grains of Lead (II) Acetate @ 12.5 cents 105.98 grains of Lead (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 27.8 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.403 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.85
An aqueous electrochemical cleaning solution consisting of 0.5 moles/liter (38.5 grams/liter) ammonium acetate and 0.02 moles/liter (6.5 grams/liter) lead(II) acetate. Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constitutent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. Purchased 2/26/01 @ $157.49 less shippingAmmonium Acetate 10 Kilo Grams @ $0.011897 per Gram or 154320 grains $0.0007709 per grain
Copper Acetate 100 Grams @ $0.1542 per Gram or 1543.2 grains $0.0099922 per grain
Lead Acetate 500 Grams @ $0.0462 per Gram or 7716 grains $0.0024948 per grain
Will make 55 ea. 500 ml Cop Out base solution
Will make 153 ea. 500 ml Lead Out base solution
will make 519 ea. 500 ml Ammonium Acetate base solution
Conversion 500 ml = 16.9 ozGrams x 15.432 = grains
Liters x 1.0567 = Quarts
Liters x 33.81402 = Ounces
Copper or copper alloy fouling, the latter occurring primarily through the use of so-called jacketed bullets, is removed in a manner similar to lead. Thus, an aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. If a potentiostat is not used, the aqueous electrolyte is preferentially doped with copper ions supplied by dissolving therein a suitable copper salt, such as copper(II) acetate. However, because copper ions in solution react spontaneously with iron in a direct replacement reaction, it has been found that only very low concentrations of copper ions can be tolerated. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore. The acetate salt of copper also appears to have the beneficial effect of lowering the spontaneous reactivity of copper with iron. Similarly as in the case of lead alloy fouling, the alloying metals typically used with copper, such as zinc, are either dissolved and codeposited on the auxiliary electrode with the copper or loosened and fall into the aqueous electrolyte.
To electrochemically remove lead fouling, an aqueous solution of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate (38.5 grams/liter) is a preferred electrolyte. Ammonium acetate has no direct chemical or electrolytic effect on steel, but provides the electrolytic conductivity necessary for the electrochemical oxidation of the metallic fouling, and acts to enhance the dissolution of the oxidized lead. If a potentiostat is not used, the electrolyte is further preferentially doped with lead ions to establish in the electrolytic solution an equilibrium electrolytic condition which promotes uniform and continuous deposition of lead on the auxiliary electrode. Doping with lead ions also eliminates the need to monitor and adjust the potential and to maintain the lead ion concentration in the electrolyte. Most conveniently, the electrolytic solution may be doped with approximately 0.02 molar lead(II) acetate (6.50 grams/liter) which is compatible with the base electrolyte and innocuous to the steel bore. It should be noted that an aqueous solution of lead acetate alone may also be effectively used. However, as previously mentioned, ammonium acetate in the electrolyte enhances the dissolution of the electrochemically oxidized lead fouling. In addition, lead acetate is not very soluble in water, but is substantially more soluble in aqueous ammonium acetate.
Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constituent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. To the extent that these minor components of the fouling layer are not actually dissolved in the electrolyte, they are conveniently swept away with the electrolyte when the bore is emptied or may be swabbed from the bore in the conventional manner after the electrolyte is removed.
The method disclosed herein is effectively operated at very low d-c potential. Thus, potentials in the range of 0.15 to 0.30 volts have been found to be adequate and it is believed that, for all usual metal fouling layers, a potential in excess of 2 volts would not be needed. In all cases, the current density is effectively controlled by the amount of metal fouling on the bore surface and remains at a low level. The practice of the method, therefore, does not expose the user to any electrical hazard. Furthermore, the method may be carried out at room temperature, thereby obviating the potential hazard of handling high temperature liquids. The electrolytes do not evolve toxic vapors and can, therefore, be safely used indoors with normal ventilation.
Thanks for the help!!